So welcome back to Men On Fire, the podcast, part two. This a test or no, we're recording. Yeah, we're recording now. So many tests, I can't remember when we're testing and clapping and all that. 

Yeah, it's not easy starting up a podcast, but wait for me. You've done most of the work. 

Yeah, we've had a few false starts as well, where I forgot your name and forgot my own name.  Just the easy bit, which we were chatting before we recorded about maybe delving a little bit deeper into the idea that when you asked me who I was, I mentioned my career, which probably would be quite a lot of people's response. 

Yeah, I think so. I asked you who you were and then asked you who you were again, didn't I? After? Because I quite find that people categorize themselves as their job, as who they are. And actually, we're not our jobs, are we? A job is a part of our life, part of who we are, but we're so much more. And to just say, I am a bank manager, an airline pilot, skydiver bin man, whatever job we are is only a part of who we are. And you know what it's like when you meet somebody new, maybe traveling or in a pub or something like that, and you're meeting new people, they always ask, what do you do? As if they want to put you in a box, really, based on what you do and I mean, you and I are both pretty unconventional, I think. Yeah, I hate that question because then you have to explain everything. 

Yeah, I do too. I usually go, do you really want to know? 

And then six months later, they always go, oh, yeah, you still teaching. 

Yeah, but yeah, I think as well, in these times that I've been through a funny few years, really, with COVID and lockdowns and stuff, a lot of people are actually starting to see themselves in a different way. It's maybe giving people an opportunity to open their eyes a little bit and to think of themselves in a different way where they don't categorize themselves by their job. It's really interesting. Really interesting. 

Okay, well, you  kind of leaned in and repeated the question when I answered, so what would your answer be? Marcus? Who are you? 
I am Marcus. At first, I'm me. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a son, I'm a friend. 

Are you quiet? Introverted, shy? Are you extroverted? Are you energetic? 
That's a good question. Straight in there. So I would say I'm an introvert, actually, so I do a lot on social media. I stand up in front of, like, a crowd of people, showing them how to barbecue, showing off flamboyant shirts. But I think I'm actually quite a you got podcast? Yeah, podcast. Now. I'm actually that pop, then that's the fire going. Yeah, firecracker. So I'm actually quite an introverted guy. I'm quite shy. I was always a shy kid, and I'm quite introverted, but for me, it's the passion of what I love and showing other people what I love that drives me. It's a passion to show people how to control fire, how to cook with fire. That's what really drives me and that brings me out of myself, which is something amazing that I think passion is a good way if you can harness your passion of getting you outside in front of a crowd. 

Definitely. And I think that's where, like, answering by what you do. It can sometimes, yes. It's obviously not a good categorize yourself as that, but part of it for me was that I'm passionate about what I do, and I love it. So I'm able to be myself in my work to a degree. Not fully always, but I think when you've got that passion helps you be someone, maybe yourself at your best self, but it's not always you, if that makes sense. So when you ask me, I was like, well, I'm this in this position, I'm this in this situation, I'm this with this person. I feel like I'm a bit of a chameleon. 
I've seen you really are. Absolutely. And it varies. It changes. So I mean I know, I know. I guess Sam, who's amazing with with kids, you know, with needs and amazingly patient and understanding, a good friend as well. But I've also seen you playing rugby as well. And I know what an animal you can be playing rugby, but that is very different. 

Yeah, exactly. And also I guess I'm glad you said playing rugby, because also in the club, essentially for a while. Yeah. There's some things that we or may not talk about at some point. 

Absolutely. But I think so that yeah, I think that question, like who you are is really interesting because it's kind of like.  It can change in different positions, it can change in different circumstances. It changes throughout your life.  And also,  it would be a good question to ask, I think, assess someone's mood. Because I think on a good day I would describe myself in positive ways. Like  focused, passionate, you know, flexible, dynamic, good in a crisis, creative. And then on a bad day, it might be impulsive,  quick to anger about certain things.  Can't focus on anything. Do you know what I mean? So it's very like you can almost and I think I never used to go in for all those sort of CB T type things like oh, just change the language you use about yourself. But actually, recently I have tried a few things that I think are really helpful. Things like practicing gratitude. Because at the end of the day, if. If you have your situation, that doesn't change. And I think what people, when they hear, oh, just do a grateful diary, blah, blah, blah, the reality of it is not going to change your situation, but it can help the way that you look at your situation, and that does distance you from the emotional pain. But obviously things are a fuckload harder to be grateful for when your situations were really difficult and it's really hard to do. But I sometimes find, like, when things are just as they always are, you can wake up on a day and be sort of picking out the difficulties and the challenges and God, it's Monday. I've got to do this. Blah, blah, had an argument with wife. This is pissing me off. And it's actually a mental practice to step back and go, do you know what? I've got a wife, got a family.  I'm working in something I love all those things that you kind of just forget to think about. It's okay to feel a bit shit as well at times, to wallow a little bit as well. We've all been there where you just think, I can't get up this morning. I don't want to do this. Sometimes you got the energy to do stuff, sometimes you haven't. That's okay. And I think people beat themselves up too much when they can't do something.  They call it cancel culture now, and I hate that. But post COVID, I think people are more aware of their feelings and how they feel. And actually, people are saying, look, I'm not okay now, I can't do this for you at this time, whereas before you'd have probably gone along with it and done it even though you weren't feeling it. And I think that's possibly changed recently, that people are a little bit more aware of how they feel in situations, and they go, well, sorry, I can't do that. And it's got this whole cancel culture that people are canceling for various reasons, and actually they might just be struggling. I think a lot of people are struggling at the moment. 

You mean cancel culture is in people that are just canceling on appointments? 
Yeah, appointments or meetings, meeting with friends and stuff. And I think if you dig a bit deeper, there's other stuff going on for people. I know sometimes I can't do it. There's stuff going on at family stuff with the kids or my own stuff, and I can't just take on something else. And there's been a definite shift, though, the last year or two, I think, especially if. Yeah, well, I guess something like Lockdown, that does introduce a difference point that allows, I guess, a bit of reflection and things like that. I'm not saying it was a good thing as such. And I think, yes, it's kind of helped people realize stuff, but in other ways, it's really knocked people in terms of their mental health and security, definitely. Which, of course, it was going to like being locked down. That was just ridiculous, really. But anyway, won't get political. We'll get canceled on episode two. Yeah, 

COVID was flop. No, it's not. Wouldn't say that out loud. I don't really believe that. 

When we asked you again, we both talked about who we are in relation to other people, but sometimes it's good to talk in relation to ourselves. I'm happy. Sad.  How are you feeling at the moment? Well, I'm happy because we're doing a podcast, so it's nice we're having a chat. I think, again, for me, that's where those activities are really important because.  It how you are in the moment can take you away from another. I mean, I'm not in a particularly difficult place as such, but it's been a rough month maybe. And actually having something like this to kind of focus on and chat and do certain things and have a focus does help. And even if when we finish here and you go back home and it's like back to the that I was struggling with, at least you've had an hour off and that's where those activities, those things you do are so important. Do you know what I think as well? So we talk to our kids about this. I call it being happy sad. So you don't have to just be one thing, like happy, like all you're dancing around, skipping around, having a great fun time. You can feel happy about some things and sad about others. I know, like with grief and stuff and bereavement that you can feel sad but still feel happy for some of the things you've got, even though you might have been through the toughest time in your life, for example, you can still feel happy about maybe you see the sun rising and it's not beating yourself up. Sometimes people think I've got to be sad now because of this, that should be but actually they're missing possibly on the small glimmers of happiness that I know can help get you out of those situations. So sometimes, even in my darkest times when I look and I see like a sunrise or birds flying or a nice blue sky or a fire or something like that, that can change me. So I think we call it happy sad. And you can be two opposing things at the same time. We're very complex beings as humans and you don't have to just be one thing. But I think that.  But for me, that represents in you something that's very good, in that you can look at, that you can notice those happy things within sadness. And I think for some people, they do struggle with that. And I think that's where for some, I'm a bit like that, I can switch on to something good, even so something's been difficult and go over here, but some people kind of dwell on it. And I think that's where those practices, like noticing the things that you're happy for, are quite important for those people that don't do it naturally, but equally, some people do. So they don't need that kind of support. And that's why where mental health prescriptive, mental health support is a nonsense because everybody's brain is different. And what you were saying about emotions, I really like that, because the brain is  there's a book called How Emotions Are Made, lisa Marie Feldman brilliant book, and it talks about this piece of research that was looking at emotions in the brain. And they put all these people into fMRI machines and they elicited they showed them pictures to elicit sadness, waited till they all expressed, oh, I'm sad because of what I see. And when they measured the brain activity, whilst everyone had like a response in the amygdala, the sort of emotion center, the fight or flight bit, the way that the response panned out in the rest of the brain was different in every person. So even you saying you're sad, although I can connect with that, it's a different feeling for you. It means different things to you, that word, because obviously everyone's brain is made up of all their own experiences. So I think,  in a way, you can say that the bit of your brain that names the feeling, am I anxious or am I excited? Is technically the bit that you're in most control of and that you can think your way into something. But equally, the way that your brain wires up is not really consciously in your control. So it's kind of like you can work towards something and you might need to at points in your life. But equally, we can't just paint it as an easy thing to do. It'd be like saying to someone, you could feel better if you could bench press 200 kilos. Okay, well, that's going to fucking be asked. Maybe can only do 20 at the moment, whereas someone that can already do 150. I'm talking about these numbers as if I can bench anywhere near that. I can't. I'm getting there. Those days are far gone. But, yeah, I think emotions are really interesting. I think I've said this to you before, doing lots of work with autistic kids. There was a period of time where we used to be told by the people, the knowledge people, whoever they were, the scientists, that you'd have these cards and you'd teach kids that didn't understand emotions by showing them, like, oh, this is happy, and it'd be a smiley face and this is sad. Such bollocks. Because, like you said, happy, sad. What about that? Where's the little symbol for that? You can't really categorize emotions. We do it through our language, which is crude, really, to express an emotion. If you say you're sad, what the fuck does that mean? Are you balling your eyes out or are you just a bit flat? 

Yeah, we're all different. Some people feel it deeper than others. People have been through different things. Others feel deeper, you know, and feel differently about things. 

Amazing. What a few sided deep. Go deep. Deep. Yeah. But yeah.

You know, I'm feeling quite relaxed now. I've got a few of these and yeah, I feel quite relaxed. I've had a lovely afternoon with my daughter and yeah, it was really nice. Bit of daddy daughter time, so all good, but there's longer term things. You can feel a bit fragile longer term, I'd say I had a bit of a rough year last year, burnout and stuff, and feel a bit fragile from that still. But I'm getting myself to a better place now and good friends around family definitely helps that people recognizing that you're struggling a little bit. What do you think? Have you managed to identify what the cause was of the burnout? Or is it something working too hard? I think working too hard, new business, the barbecue school, setting this up, pushing too hard too quickly with something that for me, is something I love and it changes it when you have to do it, you have to do it all the time, and for me, that changed it. And barbecue is kind of my rescue remedy. It helps me when I'm feeling low. But I couldn't go there because that was the thing causing me the stress. So I sort of got myself into a bit of a spiral. But I'm good now. Or getting there. But somebody said it to me the other day, actually, on a class. We were talking about mental health, and he said you don't go through something because he'd been through similar and it really stuck with me. He said, you don't go through something like a pandemic, like a burnout, a breakdown, whatever you want to call it, and come out suddenly exactly the same as you went in. You're different, you're changed, you fragile in a different way, but you're also stronger in other ways. And that really stuck with me. And that was just somebody on one of my classes, what they said really stuck with me. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember saying to some parents that I was doing a webinar on Autistic burnout and I used the word recovery and then I was like, actually.  Let's not aim for recovery because we don't always want to go back to where we were when we got burned out. It's not the goal, is it? That burnt me out. So let's recover back to there. Well, actually, no, you want to be different and change something and learn from the situation if you can. Absolutely. I think it's going through that process helps you to grow as a person, and it is important. So I wouldn't want to go back to how I was before that probably just ended up burning out. 

Yeah, exactly. It's recognizing now. I'm recognizing and I'm taking my foot off the gas when I feel a bit overwhelmed. See what you've done there with the barbecue gas off the gas? Yeah,  mostly charcoal here, but occasionally gas. And I think it is being able to recognize that in yourself. It's not something I'd ever experienced. I've experienced different things, but never burnt out because of work, and for me, that was a new experience and a bit scary, I remember, because when we got chatting a bit more recently, and I remember saying to you, you're so lucky, like, being able to do what you loved already as your job. But then for me, I love my job and I get to do bits that I like in my job, but equally, it wasn't my passion before it became my job. And I remember you saying to me then like, oh, actually, it was a bit of an ass, actually, going from something that was kind of my escape or my thing that I love to do, and then it became a business, and then it became work, and I'd never thought of it like that before. But again, I guess even if you follow your passion, there might come a point where your passion becomes your burnout.

I am super lucky with this. I've created this from nothing. You made your own luck, I think. I love this. I love that I can have I have thousands of people a year who come here, who come to me to learn how to barbecue, to cook with fire, and I love it because I can make their life a bit better in that way. They want to cook for their friends and family, they want to have a great time in the garden barbecuing, but they struggle and I can help them with a few simple tools to make that better. I had a guy on one of our very early classes, he was in his 70s, amazing bloke, and he said we all introduced ourselves, he said, I've been barbecuing for 50 years, he said, and every time I barbecue, I burn the food. And my family are like,  he was in his seventies. And yeah, he said. I don't know what to do. It just burns and I don't know how to control the fire. I had ten minutes with him and showed him a few little tricks. How to set up the coals, how to set up the barbecue. And he said to me, Why in 50 years has nobody ever shown me how to do that? Why have you just come to me now and shown me how to do that? I said enjoy it. Go and cook for your family, cook for your friends. And he said, oh, it's amazing that he could create food now without burning it. And I think there's a lot of people like that. And for me to be able to do that is real, is a gift that I can do. I love to teach people that. And it's simple things, but equally. But when it becomes a business, you got to make money, do the stuff. It becomes that pressure. And I can see that that's kind of got both elements to it. 

What is it they say? Do something you love as work and you won't feel like you're working? To a point. Yeah, but to a point as well. It can change it. Take the gloss off it. Do something you love as work and you might not feel like you're doing something you love. Other kicker with it, I suppose. Yeah, that's interesting one. Going back over the barbecue thing as well, actually. No, sorry, I wanted to tie that into episode. So like when you said about. Who you are, I think I wonder, like, that is a bit of a crossover, isn't it? Because who you are, you could be I work doing the oil stuff, but I'm also a Marcus that loves to barbecue. And then now you are saying the job.  You mentioned the oil stuff. So I've worked for 20 plus years, since the mid 90s in the oil and gas industry. I mentioned the oil stuff because that was the full extent of my knowledge of it. So a young man just at a university wanted to travel the world and see spirit of Adventure, so I did that. I went off to some nice places like Nigeria and Angola, on the verge of civil war, and it was a real experience as a young man, and I love that.  I don't travel like that now. I work in my garden shed, which has got its own adventures when the goats escape and stuff and the children are there. But, yeah, I did that for years and I love that, I really do. And I did miss that when I had about a year of no oil work and just doing the barbecue, and it was fantastic. But that was when I burnt out. I didn't have the change of scene. I'm somebody who needs a couple of things, but variety. And for me to be able to do a bit of oil work a couple of days a week to drill massively successful wells, to be involved, making decisions that can cost millions of pounds, I get a real buzz out of that. And that's like my professional, me standing in front of a team saying, yeah, we need to do this, we need to go up and down and drill through this level. I love that. I do love that. But I also love teaching as well. So my work is a bit of both. I'm an author and I think people can we said at the beginning, be a few things. Yeah, definitely. But again, I wonder if having sort of started by saying who you are runs deeper than your career, but equally. We were talking about this the other day and it'd be interesting to hear from anyone listening who's in this situation in. 1And maybe it's easier than we think, but we were talking about how difficult it would be to work, say, a nine to five that you hated or you had no interest in or you just didn't give a shit. Now, I think some people and lots of my mates are a bit like this. They've gone into a job and they've just been really good at it, and they're the best in that job. And I think that adds some think to your job where, okay, maybe I'm not interested in bloody, I don't know, real estate or whatever it is I'm doing, but I'm fucking good at it, and I know my shit and that you can go that way with it, and then maybe it's not as much of a problem. But I do wonder how grating that is to have a job where you're literally like, this is not me at all. It's so hard. I know the pressures. As a man, you've got to earn the money to come in. You've got to keep a roof over your head. There's so much pressure as a man like that to keep going. It's really hard to do. I say I'm lucky. Again, I'm lucky. I've always had a bit of space to develop my passion, to develop that into something that I knew might have to take over one day. But a lot of guys aren't that lucky. Like, it's nothing but respect, because I think if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I've got the ability to do if the shit hit the fan, and I absolutely had to, I'd find something. But certainly when I was young, like, I've had. A lot of different jobs that have not lasted long. Like my CV, I think I went to see a careers advisor when I was about 24, and they said, Just don't maybe just pretend that you've been out of the country for six years. Because if you put this many jobs when you lasted three fucking months, it doesn't look good. So I think there's that sort of and again, we talk about being a man. It's interesting thing because there are bits of manliness, if we're going to call it that, sort of standard macho or masculinity that I definitely fit. But there are other bits where I just don't at all. And it's things like just sort of stoically, sticking out, going down the line, nine to five. I'm just shit at stuff like that.  Practical stuff, like DIY and sorting all this stuff out. I can't do stuff like that. I'm so shit at DIY as well. Yeah see that see, that is interesting because you're very good with the tech. Yeah, I like the tech gadgets and stuff, but putting up a set of shelves or something, 1s they don't last five minutes or something like that. I'd rather get somebody in who knows how to do it properly. Have you got any horrific DIY stories? We had a bit of lightness. 

I'm always going up ladders and always falling off them. A few ladders, yeah, definitely.  Yeah. I just think I'm pretty rubbish. I make do usually it's not having the right tools for the job and it's always about the tools. Yeah, that's what I've learned. Yeah, I'm quite a strong chap and I put holes in things quite easily. I'll go and hammer a nail in and end up through the wall, sort of thing. Well, speaking, I asked that question because obviously I've actually got a story myself. So I got brought my first power drill by my father in law, who is shit hot at DIY. He can do everything. It's embarrassing at 40 years old. Both my wife and my son, if something is broken, will say, Grandpa will fix it. What about me? But I can't. So they brought me this Black and Decker. Every year I get like a DIY type bit of machinery to sort of go, come on, Sam, sort it out. Not me around forever. Fucking but he brought me this like drill. So I've got my drill, got my new drill and we got a mirror that needs hanging. Right, I'm going to bloody do this. And I've got this spirit level out. I measured the bit in the wall, made sure the pole was in the middle of the wall, exactly where the misses want it and all that kind of stuff. Got me mirror, blah, blah, blah, all sorted. And then so then I've got my drill. Started drilling and I know I'm going to put a raw plug in and I'm going to drill like a pilot hole first put the rule plug in. I've learned that. So then I'm going, 

Fuck me. It's not going in very far. And I'm looking and it's not as deep as the raw plug, but it's almost at the end of the drill and it starts getting wider. The hole not deeper, just fucking wider. Taking the wall out there's like a chunk the size of a 50 p coin out the wall now. Still going, still going. And in the end I've sort of capitulated and gone, leah, I don't know what the fuck is wrong with this drill your dad got me, but can you sort it out? It's ripping the ball. And she goes, You've got the fucking screwdriver attachment. And I've been trying to drill a pilot hole with a Phillips screwdriver attachment on the drill. I'm not quite that bad. 

No. Okay. Was I just doing it badly so I never have to do it again? The better you are at it, the more you get asked and your neighbors get you round. Oh, yeah, he's  even my child. Won't 

I get that with barbecues? 

Yeah, I'll bet. You know, I think there's all these things like as a bloke you're supposed to be able to do. And sometimes we can't do them all. And I know, like we barbecue a lot of men, women struggle with it and it's just something that you're expected to do as a man. And I see that a lot of people struggle with it. And it's quite a big thing to go to another man and say, actually, I don't know how to light a barbecue. I don't know how to control a barbecue. I get the same feeling when I go into a garage and I say, look, my car is making a funny noise and the mechanic looks at me and goes, or it's going be expensive. 

He knows you know fuck all. So it's it's probably a similar thing, but I try and do it with bit respect and teach people. It's a real being able to teach people is an amazing thing. If I say I was one thing apart from all those other things, I'd probably put a teacher. 

But. What's the okay, here's a good question then. What's the most ridiculous on the theme of DIY? Have you ever had someone that's doing something like mad with their barbecue? I don't know, dirty cooking a steak on a bag of instant light? Oh, yeah. So dirty steaks is one. So those of you who've been on my classes will know this is quite a good story. So dirty steaks obviously cooked straight on the coals, and you got to use really good quality lumpwood charcoal for that. Like the best quality. And I get people sometimes come back to me and they'll say, oh, I tried your dirty steaks, mate. You don't know what you're on about. And I usually say, what charcoal be used? And quite often it's briquettes, which aren't ideal because they go too ashy and a bit gritty and a bit nasty. They're not ideal for dirty cooking. I had one lovely gentleman many years ago who said, mate, effing and blind in telling me I didn't know what I was on about. He ruined this because he fucked up his steak. It was your fault. Yeah, exactly. Told me I didn't know what I was on about. He wasted this food and I was an idiot sort of thing. And I said, what charcoal did you use? Expecting him to say of briquettes? And he said, no, I cooked it on my gas barbecue. And I said, how the hell did you cook it on a gas barbecue? And he said, well, you know the charcoal at the bottom? And I said you said gas. He said, you know, the chunks of stuff at the bottom. And I was like, what? Lava rock? The nasty it's industrial clinker, basically. And he cooked his steaks on that and I don't know if you've ever touched that stuff, but it's brittle, so it soaks up the fat and it goes rancid. And it was absolutely minging. And he said, I didn't know what I was on about. So that's one of my little stories from my classes.  Quite often people will try something, maybe get it wrong, and then blame the weird. If I was taught something by someone and I messed it up, I wouldn't assume that it was their fault. Yeah, but he wasn't taught so he hadn't been on my class. He might have seen he'd seen it somewhere or seen somebody else do it and thought, oh yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe that message hadn't got through. I obviously haven't got through because definitely not. But, yeah, he gave it a go and he thought on the charcoal at the bottom. But that would have been pretty grim, really. So, yeah, if you're going to do a dirty state, don't do it on a gas barbecue. Good quality charcoal. If you smell your charcoal, that's kind of what it's going to taste a bit like. So if it smells like ass, like that coal you get from them. He put in, like, log burners and it absolutely stinks. Have you ever had that? There's lots of stinky things out there.  If you guys want. My social media has got loads of stuff on. I've been doing it for years, my books and stuff. But if you ever want any tips, just ask us below. We'll help. 

Sam's learned a few skills I haven't. And like you said, mate, that 70 year old. I just feel fortunate that I've managed to get there at 40, because some of the stuff you showed me, I was like, how the fuck am I not like just temperature, just a temperature thermometer. And knowing that actually, because when you do a barbecue, I think you either fall into two categories. When you're clueless, you're either the Chancellor, who will make it look nice, but it could well be raw inside of people might die, or you're the safety first. And that was me, to be fair. I was nowhere else in my life but in barbecue, I was safety first. I want to make sure it's cooked, which usually means it's cremated, but no one's going to die. So with just getting a meat from water and knowing the temps and also, the other awesome one you gave was about the size of the wood blocks for the fire. As someone who knows how to start a fire with a mushroom and a spark, well, I know how to I've never actually managed it. 1s I sort of thought, oh, yeah, I know fire. But actually, just when you're cooking, like knowing to have a smaller bit of wood to get it to charcoal quicker, really. 1.1s Speaking of fire, we've got these bit of wood on there just smoldering away. We don't really need the heat today. It's blooming boiling here. More for effect. Yeah, it's more for a bit of effect and a bit of ambiance. Smoky ambiance performance. 

Yeah. I've set it up so the smoke's drifting towards me and 

'm in the nice smoke free spot. I'm all right with fires, though. I can sit in the smoke for hours. I am thinking, I think, part caveman. You can probably see from the brow ridge there, it's quite prominent. I did one of those neanderthal tests and I came out as 4%. I thought that's not very much, but actually it turned out it's fucking. 

But, yeah, we're going to talk about fires as well at some point, so I won't talk about it now, but in a future episode, it's going like, deep into fire, and I see like a fire as a human life, but we won't go there now because I've not had enough cider yet. But  the stages of a human life, like a fire. I know, I've read the book. Read the book and it's a very good analogy. So I think we will go into that definitely next time. But a bit like a podcast, like this podcast enough of like, a baby and like the end of your life. We are embering away. We are embrying deaths  and smoke. So, yeah, I think how long have we been going?  Probably long enough. 40 minutes. 40 minutes. So if you can put up with 40 minutes, again,  we want feedback, don't we? Yeah, feedback. A bit of feedback. I mean, obviously, if the feedback is shit, won't be listening. Again, we don't necessarily need to know that. We like it longer, we like it shorter, we like it more direct, we like the stories, whatever it is. And we'd like to know what you're doing while you're listening. 

Yes, and what I love the fact that there are places to share your struggles. There are people you definitely should share your struggles with. But I think what we need online and as just a community of people sharing ideas is what helps. What helps you? What has helped you? What would help you? Let's look towards being on fire in a good way. The answer is always fire. Again, we may have some people on that want to talk about addiction responsibly. I work closely with a friend who struggles with addiction that might be a good thing to delve into if you haven't got a cider. But again, replace it with something you like to drink. A Diet Coke. Whatever it is. Sit by a fire, have a Diet Coke to do. But if people want to sponsor us by sending us loads of free booze, we've not got any alcohol problems, so we cannot send it our way. Anyway. Cool. 

Cheers. Bye.