Welcome to Men on Fire, a podcast about what it means to be a man. Hello, mate. All right? You're right? Yeah, not too bad. Oh, Marcus. I've got a little bit of hot coal from the fire on me. I'm going to have a cry about it. What are you going to tell me? Man up, mate. Man the fuck up. As I've been told before  now, in that context, may be man up might be appropriate. I don't know if I was going to start balling. That's a rugby thing, isn't it? Man the F up lying in a sack of bones and blood on the pitch and slightly teammates. I like, man up.  We were talking before we started recording about it. Man up.  What's the issue with that phrase, do you think? Because I think, rightly, it's being questioned whether it should be said or not, especially to young men. It's hard because  I think that. There, you know, as I guess, old school.  I remember we used to get told to man up games, teachers, it's like, oh, yeah, do you want to do cross country? No, you're there sort of struggling, they tell you to man up.  But in these climates, actually being a bit more sensitive about people's needs, I think, is a bit more important as well, but that there is definitely something there that  rings true to a bit of toughness is needed as part of being a man, I think. Yeah. The world is a tough place sometimes, isn't it? So I guess you need that balance of  being able to  be a bit tough and get through certain things and the challenge and all that kind of stuff. I think the issue, I guess, from a therapeutic point of view, is we know that not talking about stuff, not paying attention to how you're feeling, feeds into a lot of difficulties, particularly men have with mental health, so. Like anything. It's context, isn't it? If I was, as a 40 year old man in tears because a bit of fire or cold well, maybe if I was on fire, fair enough. But if it was a bit of cold or fall on my shoe and ruined my shoe and I was crying, okay, maybe man, that's appropriate.  If I'm telling you that someone in my family that's close to me is dying or I've got some serious illness, you're not going to say, man up. And should you or somebody stood on the side of a bridge or something ready to jump, you wouldn't say no. But then I think what's difficult again with young people is my son's about three, three and a half. So the other day I was thinking about this, because he gets into a right state when he has his hair washed, and not even when he's got it in his eyes, just like literally the thought of it. But he's three and a half, and if I say to him, look, man up, life's tough, I think the danger would be that he would maybe bring that into other context and not feel like he could cry and express himself. Yeah. So I guess it's that balance of when you're using it, but also making sure you've got the other side of it and letting people know that it's okay to talk about their feelings and it's okay to struggle with something that other people don't. Yeah. Having some toughness is important, though, as well, I think. Yeah, definitely. But I don't necessarily know if toughness is.  Just getting on with it all the time. I guess it's a bit of a more subjective, deep topic. Woman to man up as well. Well, that's the other side. That's the other downfall with the phrase, isn't it? Because it insinuates that just men are tough, and if you're crying or you're being emotional, you're being a woman. And the other side of man up is another phrase you hear a lot. Stop being a girl. Yeah. Don't be a girl about it. Which really degrading to women. It's not necessarily the message we want for our young people, really. No, I think man up would be a better name for, say, some sort of knockoff Viagra product. Really does exactly what it says on the  Getting Lucky tonight. My man up. Yeah, I'm on my man up.  Toughness is a funny one, isn't it? Have you had situations in your life where you couldn't find that toughness?&